Hack-Man Pro-Wrestling Interview Page

Last updated 16 February 2007

Dawn Marie

from The Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter #897

The following is a “Torch Talk” interview with former WWE and ECW wrestler and valet, Dawn Marie. She was released in the midst of the final year of her contract with WWE just shortly after becoming pregnant. (She recently gave birth to baby boy Mattthew.) She has filed a complain with the EEOC and is suing WWE for wrongful termination. In this first installment of her only media interview since leaving WWE, she talks about how she fell in love with wrestling after participating in her first show, the respect she has for the industry, her disappointment with the lack of reverence newer women have for pro wrestling, and her start in ECW. In future installments, she will detail her stay in ECW, including the demise of the promotion, her time in WWE as the women's scene changed dramatically over the course of a few years, the state of the industry, her view on a variety of controversies involving herself and the industry in general, and her plans for the future. The interview was conducted on Jan. 12.

Wade Keller:I know you were a wrestling fan growing up, but talk about how you broke into the business.

Dawn Marie: I've always been a wrestling fan for as long as I can remember. My father and my grandfather and my uncle and my brother used to watch it all the time. We used to go to old MSG shows... Back in 1995 I had finished school, NYU Business School. I was the director of an international real estate firm. Prior to that, I was pursuing an acting career. But when I finished school and got my really good job in New York, I wasn't getting anywhere in acting. I finished up a poster contract I had done in Florida. A contact down there, a guy named Jonathan, brought up wrestling and told me I could be the next Miss Elizabeth, which completely shows how ignorant I was because those were some pretty big shoes to fill. I thought it sounded great and would be a lot of fun, but that was pretty much the end of it. About a week later I received a phone call from Jonathan. He said he called up a friend of his, Cousin Luke. He said he had a small indy show going on in New Jersey and he had me booked. I laughed and told him, “Jonathan, I was only kidding! There's no way.” He said, “I called in a favor. Just do it this once.” I said, “Okay, I'll do it this one time.” So I created a little character and I went out there and I managed Tony Atlas against Jimmy Snuka. I loved it. I can remember walking out of the curtain and thinking, Oh my god, this is what I'm supposed to do. That was on a Friday and Monday morning I called up my boss in New York and said, “I'm not coming in.” She said, “Are you crazy? You're young, you're director of an international firm, what are you doin'.” I said, “I'm sorry. I'm not coming back. Please don't talk me out of it.” She said, “We'll talk about it when you come in.” I said no. She said, “When you come in to get your stuff, we'll talk about this.” I said, “No, I'm not coming in for my stuff. I'm not coming in for my books, my licenses. You don't understand. I'm not quitting you, I'm quitting the business, the industry. I'm just not doing it.” So I quit and went back to the bar where I was working and asked for my job back and pursued my wrestling career.

Wade Keller:Did you figure you could make a lot of money in wrestling?

Dawn Marie: No, it's never been about money. I've never been in this business for the money. I just loved it. I never felt the way I did when I walked out of the curtain for the first time. I just knew that's what I was supposed to do and I was going to do everything I could to try to achieve it. I was making 25 dollars a show driving from New Jersey to anywhere from Detroit down to Florida. It was costing me money. I just loved it instantly. I fell in love with it. I pursued it and that was it.

Wade Keller:What about it appealed to you so much? Was it that rush of being in front of the crowd combined with the setting?

Dawn Marie: I always felt that entertainers are artists. Just like an artist that paints on canvas, if you don't paint, you feel you're not whole. You always heat that artists have to paint; it makes them whole, makes them complete. I believe in the same thing with entertainers. At the time, I wasn't wrestling, I was just part of the entertainment end of it. It made me feel whole. It made me feel that this is who I'm supposed to be for the rest of my life. To me, hey, I'm not a very extravagant person, so it wasn't about the money or the fame or the glory. It was about doing something that made me feel whole. It was what I was supposed to do.

Wade Keller:Were the road trips fun or was it a price you had to pay to get to the show?

Dawn Marie: It was definitely a price I had to pay. I mean, I didn't get involved like most of the women in the industry, especially back then, because you had a husband or boyfriend in the business. I didn't. I just had an instant love affair with the business. I would travel by myself. I can remember driving through the night because I was afraid to stop at a hotel and I would sleep during the day in a hotel because I was afraid to check in at night. I can remember taking extra shifts at the bar just so I had enough gas money to get somewhere and back because who knew if they were even going to pay you your 25 or 50 bucks. It definitely was just something I had to do to obtain what I wanted to.

Wade Keller:How often did you work in the first couple of years?

Dawn Marie: You know, I was very fortunate. I worked a lot but I was very aggressive about my work. I would send out pictures and I would call promoters all over. I would probably work everywhere from one to three times a week. I also joined up with a group of people when I first started. There was this guy named Tom Casati. He kind of would take a group of people around all over the United States. He allowed me to be part of this little group that he travelled with. People used to think he was crazy and this and that, but thank god I had him because I was able to travel with Missy Hiatt and Scott Putski and the Head Bangers and Tom Brandi and Devon Storm. At the time, other than Missy and Scott who had already been somewhere, they were up and coming. Oh, Buddy Landel, too. He's been around forever. I was able to be around these people that had so much more experience than me and learn. I was lucky. With Tim, I would work probably two times a week.

Wade Keller:When you were working these shows, are you in the ring at all, or were you purely outside the ring? Were you training to wrestle at this point?

Dawn Marie: I was paired up with Buddy Landel at the beginning. Buddy Landel was so important to the beginning of my career because he taught me how to be a manager and how to respect the business. He didn't necessarily teach me the inside of the ring, but he taught me the behind the scenes (aspects). He taught me the politics, the rules. I'd get upset because I didn't know and I wanted to get into the ring when he got into the ring. He'd go, “No. You have to earn to get into the ring. You don't just walk in this ring.” He taught me a respect for that ring. I have so much respect for that ring because I feel I earned the privilege to walk in there. He made me earn it. For probably the first six, eight months of my career, he wouldn't let me get into the ring with him. “You learn how to work the outside before you're allowed to get on the inside,” he said. So I did. I had to learn how to be seen on the outside and learn my craft on the outside before I was ever allowed on the inside. At the time I didn't understand. I used to think he was just being mean. But now looking back, it really helped me get this groundwork for my future career.

Wade Keller:Did you find that you had an early desire to be in the ring, take bumps, learn to wrestle? Was that something you aspired to do? Or did you think at the beginning you'd be happier at ringside?

Dawn Marie: Back then, girls weren't wrestling. I was totally happy just being an entertainer, being on the outside, help selling the match. You know what the problem is today? The girls think, “Oh, I need to be a wrestler or else I'm not important in the business.” To be a manager, it's a lost art that was lost with Lou Albanos and The Wizard and Sherri Martel. It's a lost art. It has not been taught to the newer generation. And basically, my job as a manager on the outside is to sell the match and to help get over the story that is being portrayed in there. If something goes wrong, to try to mask it to try to possibly maybe take the fans' eyes off of what's going on in the ring to myself. Know when to be seen, when not to be seen. Know when to emphasize things that are going on in the ring and know when not to, and try to hide them. I've seen more managers ruin false finishes because all they do is sell the finish; they don't sell any false finish. Fans notice a manager is acting like it's going to be a loss, so this must be the end. A simple ten punch in the corner, which is totally boring to the fans now and you'll get a boring chant in a second, but if you're a good manager, you sell the ten punches in the corner like your guy is ready to die if one more punch is being given, it's a lost art. Nobody was better at sneaking into the ring and you didn't see him until he got in there and did something was Captain Lou. You just never knew how often you'd see him there. It's a lost art. Most of the girls (today) don't know how to talk on the mic. I was taught as a manager back when I first started, basically you were put with someone to fill a weakness that you're guy with has. Maybe he doesn't have charisma, so you better be able to turn on your charisma to get over your charisma, or lack of. Fool the fans, in the sense that this guy has charisma, or if he can't talk that well on the mic, you better be able to pick up that mic and talk your ass off and hide the fact that this guy can't talk on the mic. Or if his timing is off, you better have great timing on those false finishes because you better hide his lack of timing. Back when I was taught how to be manager, it was you're job to get the guy you're in there with over - not yourself. If your guy is over, you're over. Period. That was the end of the story. I really believe that is the lost art. The girls today aren't being taught that. They're worried, “What's in it for me? What's my spot? I wanna do a highspot! If I'm not wrestling, I'm nothing. I just stand outside the ring.” And that's so wrong. That's when I came in compared to how people are coming in today.

Wade Keller:Do you think part of your ability to understand that and grasp that which is lost on a lot of people had to do with growing up and being a fan and following it closely?

Dawn Marie: Oh, yeah, definitely because I loved the old timers, the old managers. I just thought they were so entertaining and great. I used to love Piper's Pit and watch him talk. It was just mesmerizing. I didn't come in as a wrestler, but I didn't not like it when I wrestled. I just looked at it as a different aspect of my business that I had to learn. But I definitely think there is a lack of knowledge with the new generation coming in. I'm only going to talk about the girls because I can't talk about the guys. The girl's lack knowledge. I don't fault these girls that are coming in with no knowledge because they're given an opportunity. What are they going to say? “No, don't give it to me? Don't pay me? Don't give me a job?” No, they're not going to say that. But I do fault them for once they have the job, to not educate themselves. I mean, there's no greater library than at WWE. I know for a fact that if you ask for video footage, they'll give it to you. I can't tell you how many times I was in the back and I won't name any names, but females who have been in the business five, six, seven years have come up to me and say, “Who is that?” when an old-timer is coming to visit and they see other people going over and being respectful. Why don't you know? You've been around long enough. And that is when I lose respect for people who are in the business who are given opportunities.

Wade Keller:When you were working the indy scene and you started working more and more often, and picking up more and more along the way, what aspects of wrestling, if any, did you start to take in and dislike about it? It sounds as if when you first started, you fell in love with it. But the indy scene isn't always the most pleasant experience to be part of. Did you start to see some of the seedier sides of the industry at that point?

Dawn Marie: I always loved the business and one thing I'm so happy about, even with my recent release and the situation behind it [Note: Dawn was released while pregnant, and is suing WWE for wrongful termination through a complaint filed with the EEOC.] I've never grown bitter to the business because I was taught that the business owes you nothing. The business owes me nothing. I have not contributed enough to this business to feel it owes me anything. This business owes the Ric Flairs and the Tully Blanchards and the old-timers, they're the ones who are owed. I'm not owed anything. So when I was in the locker room, even on the indy scene, and there might have been something I wasn't too happy about, I was just grateful I was there being able to be part of this business. I was let into that business. That's the way I was brought in. You don't just get into the business. You were brought in back then. Someone took you by the hand and allowed you into their business. The person who taught me that was Jimmy Snuka. When I started on the indys, I met Jimmy Snuka, and he is a wonderful, wonderful man. He almost became like a father figure to me on the indys. He took a lot of time with me talking with me and just being really kind. One day I was sitting across from him and I said, “Jimmy, why do you take the time out to talk to me the way you do? I see you don't talk to other people that much. You are very quiet and reserved. Why do you do that with me? You don't hit on me. You're not trying to sleep with me. I don't get it. Why?” He said because he sees that respect the business, his business. And in order for his business and his career to mean anything, he has to pass it on or it dies with him. He's like, “I'm giving you my business. I'm allowing you in.” That was the most amazing moment of my career because I was given something that someone worked their whole life for and it was a privilege, and I realize that.

Wade Keller:Was it around 1998 when you got into ECW?

Dawn Marie: Yes, I started in August of '98. It was supposed to be a one-shot deal. They were looking for someone to go in against Tammy Sytch coming off of her Sunny days in WWE. They were looking to bring in Terri Runnels, but Terri Runnels was resigning with WWE at the time, which then gave me my opportunity. I was a local girl and they needed someone real quick. Jeff Jones was talking about me to Bubba Ray. Bubba called me. He said, “Can you be down to the arena by 4:30. It was 1 o'clock in the afternoon or something like that. I said, “Yes, I can.” He said, “Bring some stuff. I'm not promising you're gonna work, but we want to talk to you.” So I hurried up and got down there. I met everyone and introduced myself. I was so scared. I walked into the arena by myself and didn't know anybody. We were talking. Then Bubba called me into the room and said, “I've got to ask you a question. Be honest. Either way it's fine, but will you allow Tammy to strip you down to your bra and panties?” Back then, that did not happen! That was a big no-no. You did not do that. That was probably a little after Sable came out with the hand prints. That was very controversial. That was a big deal. It was shortly after that (that I was asked by Bubba to strip). I thought if I make the wrong decision here, it could ruin everything I have worked for. Vince (McMahon) won't want me. I can't go to WCW if I ruin my image. I didn't know. I didn't have any guidance. And I was a nervous wreck, so I called up Pat (a/k/a Simon Diamond) who was my fiance for years, now my ex. At the time he was my friend. I didn't know what to do. I was calling him and calling him and he didn't answer, he was busy. (Bubba) gave me 15 minutes to think about it. He sees me about 15 minutes later and said, “Did you think about it?” I said, “Yeah, I did.” He said, “What's the answer?” I said, “Yeah, I have no problem with it.” He looked at me and said, “Really?” I said, “No, I don't.” The reason I came up with that decision was because again the way I was brought in, my job was to do whatever I'm asked to the best of my ability and not have an opinion of it. I remembered that. I said, “I don't necessarily know if I'm doing the right thing, but my job is to do what I'm asked and not have an opinion of it.” And I did it. So that first day I started with Lance Storm against Tammy Sytch and Chris Candido at the (ECW) Arena. That was it. They paid me my money and I went home. They called me up that Wednesday and they said, “Do you want to come in for another weekend?” I said, “Sure.” They said, “Okay, well, be in New Orleans by Saturday morning.” I said, “Okay, well, where do I pick up my plane ticket?” I didn't know. (laughs) Bubba said, “Plane ticket? Who do you think you are? A superstar?” (laughs) He said, “If you want the gig for the weekend, you get down to New Orleans by Saturday morning. Call Debbie Beaumont and get the arena's name. I got there. I was there on Saturday morning. I did the three shots with them. Paul loved the chemistry between Lance and I. We had an interesting chemistry. He created a position for me.

Wade Keller:Had you ever run into issues where you would perform as a valet for a wrestler and there were concerns or jealousy issues on the part of the guy's wife or boyfriend? Edge and Lita got very physical on Raw on Monday and that kind of thing can cause issues with spouses or partners watching back home or elsewhere in the arena?

Dawn Marie: Well, especially because they had a past relationship. That adds to it. You know what, Tina, Lance's wife, is an amazing woman. She's very funny, she's very easy-going. Lance is not your normal wrestler. Know what I mean? (laughs) We used to joke around and said, “Lance, we could throw you in a room full of beautiful naked women and you would not do anything.” He is the kindest, most gentle, most professional, loyal man. If he ever did anything wrong, like god forbid he cheated or ever did something, I would lose all faith in men because I really hold him in that high regard. In all my time with Lance, he's never made a pass or remark or innuendo. Nothing. He just loves his wife and his family and his wife knows that. She's actually made jokes and called me “the girlfriend.” I would buy him presents for Christmas and she'd say, “Oh, the girlfriend gives great Christmas presents.” She knew. I just admired Lance and that's it.

Wade Keller:Describe as best you can the chemistry that you and Lance Storm had on the air in ECW?

Dawn Marie: It's hard to describe. You either have it or you don't. And Lance and I just had this instant chemistry, this instant respect. Lance helped me through so much of my career, I don't know if I'd be where I am now if it weren't for Lance. He protected me, but at the same time, he was hard on me. He didn't allow me to make mistakes, but at the same time he explained everything to me so explicitly before we went out and the reason behind why everything was done that I just received this immense knowledge of the match that it was difficult to screw up because if you understand what's going on, you can't screw up. He just taught me so much. Also, at the time, I was lucky and fortunate enough to work with Shane Douglas. And Shane has impeccable timing and knowledge of the business and he would go over a match with me, no lie, a half hour to an hour and explain everything that happened, why it happened, how the timing could be better. "If I came in here, the timing would be better. If I did it like this, it would be better." He was just such good critique. He didn't do it in a way where it was demeaning at all. It was educational and respectful and he just knew that I wanted to learn, so he took the time out to teach me. He is a great teacher.

Wade Keller:Now, the ECW experience was quite a bit different from the indy scene in many ways. While you weren't playing in front of 15,000 fans, all of a sudden television was introduced to your career. How did that change the way you approached your job and how did having Paul Heyman produce your character for TV change your approach?

Dawn Marie: Well, everyone says Paul's a genius, he's this, he's that. And he is. But I don't think people understand what his true genius is. Paul has this ability of bringing the best out in you. Just when you think you can't do it, he knows how to talk to you in a way that you have confidence in yourself. And if you really don't have the confidence in yourself, you feel so much respect for Paul for giving you this opportunity and you don't want to let him down, so you work ten times harder to get it done. I know for myself, I can only talk for myself. People say, "Oh, you drink the Kool-Aid" and "He makes people do things they didn't want to do." He's never asked me to do anything I didn't want to do. Paul just knew me and knew how to talk to me and knew how to let me have the confidence in myself to accomplish anything. Paul's true genius is finding raw talent and giving them the stage to do what they do best. And then what he does is he takes their strongest points and he emphasizes them and he hides their weakest points. And then what he does is he works on your weak points on a very slow pace so you don't lose confidence. Okay. So I would say that was Paul's true genius, that he was able to see your strengths and weaknesses and then give you a stage to perform and do what you do best.

Wade Keller:Give me a "for instance." What did you learn very early on specifically from Paul Heyman in terms of how you carried yourself and performed?

Dawn Marie: Well, Paul Heyman taught me so much. He taught me how to have confidence in what I'm doing, to follow my instincts, to believe in my instincts, that they're going to be right. If you think too much in the ring, it's gonna come across as phony. He taught me how to be believable. He taught me how to do promos in comparison to the WWE. Paul would say, "Okay, you have 25 seconds. This is the town, this is the point we want to get across, this is the name of the building. Go. You have 20 seconds." And you'd do it. Then he says, "Okay, let's do another one for 35 seconds. Go." And you did it. Or he'd give you promos and an idea of what he wants accomplished, and then you go out there and you do it on the mic live. But he never gave you verbatim. He gave you a chance to be creative and where the WWE, they gave you every single word scripted in the promo. So it was never you and it was harder, I found, to be believable there (in WWE) because it wasn't my own words explaining what I felt they wanted to be portrayed. I really thought that's where a lot of the problems were coming across where back in the '80s, these guys were so believable because it was a craft, their art, their character coming out. And it was their own words, so they were more believable, as opposed to today when they're writing these scripts and people are just regurgitating someone else's words. It doesn't come across as believable or real.

Wade Keller:Had you done much TV before ECW? Were there any indy promotions that taped shows?

Dawn Marie: I worked for a lot of companies in New Jersey, Pennsylvania. Anywhere from Detroit down to Florida. There were little handhelds, but they didn't have major cameras. The other thing I learned from Paul is how to work the hard camera and learning when to be seen, not to be seen, how to work the cameras, the ref, telegraphing when you're going to come in. I hate when managers - my biggest pet peeve is when a girl stands on one side of the ring the whole match, and then right before she's ready to do something, she walks to the other side of the ring. Okay, well, obviously you're going to do something when you're finally moving now. It's just things like that, the subtleties that made my art more complete. Paul did that. Paul helped me with that. A great critique.

Wade Keller:When you began working for ECW, did your schedule get a lot more intense, or were you keeping a pretty full indy schedule before ECW, so adjusting to ECW wasn't a big deal?

Dawn Marie: No, when I was at ECW, I didn't work any indies. The ECW schedule was tougher at the beginning. Paul started off with two or three shows a week, but we were travelling. When you started at ECW, you didn't fly. When I first started, we were doing other states. The rules there were, for the first six months of your career, you drove everywhere. It was part of paying your dues. ECW was about earning your respect. They didn't care what you did before, where you were before, who you were before, you're starting over now. For the first six months, I had to drive everywhere. Even though it might have been two dates, I was driving for two or three days to wherever, Florida, New Orleans, Kentucky. So it was a full-time schedule for me. Also, they didn't pay for your expenses. So when I first started in ECW, it actually cost me money. I earned $175 a show when I first started ECW. By the time I paid my expenses on the road, I ended up spending two or three hundred dollars which was then why I asked permission to fly myself places because I had to ask permission for that. They gave me a little bit of trouble for that. But I explained to them that I had my own home, and I had bills to pay and at the time I was a Go Go Dancer in New Jersey for years, and I made more money staying home working and paying for my own plane ticket. Like, it was costing me too much money because I was away from work. So, if I worked for three dates, one day I paid for my plane ticket, the other two days (dancing) I paid my bills. So, it was easier for me. Then they told me it was okay, I could do that. Then they actually let up on me. I didn't have to do the full six months. In the end of December, Paul renegotiated my contract. Paul said to me, "What do I have to do to have you sign a contract?" I said, "Take me out of the bar." He said, "Okay. Well, how much is that going to cost me. What is the absolute minimum it will cost me to get you out of the bar and you stay with me." Not to stay with him physically (laughs)! Just stay with his company. I thought of a number and I told him. It was the bare minimum. I didn't try to take him or anything. He said, "Okay, starting next week, the first week in January, that's what you'll be making. You have a set salary. You work just for me." I have nothing but respect for Paul because he took me out of the bar. I was a dancer for many, many years. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but he knew I wanted out. He helped me do that. He helped me pursue my career and my dream. I'll always love him for that.

Wade Keller:When you were signed full time to ECW, was the company doing well enough that you could make a decent living from the contract?

Dawn Marie: Yeah. Some people made very good money there, and some people didn’t make very much at all. There was a huge gap between those who made money and those who didn’t. I’m not gonna lie to you. Like I said, when I first started, I was making 75 dollars a night. My first contract was a lot more than that, like it was a very good income. Paul was very good to me. Paul was good to those who were good to him and respected him. If you played him for a fool, you’re not gonna get away with it. If you respected him and just didn’t try to take advantage of him and you were just an honest person, he was very sympathetic to that and he was respectful to you back. If he felt you were trying to take advantage of him, he would screw you. I’m not gonna lie.

Wade Keller:The receipt would be issued.

Dawn Marie: Oh yeah, ten times worse.

Wade Keller:Okay, you’re in the middle of ECW during a really exciting time. I mean, you weren’t there at the ground floor in the mid–’90s, but this ECW experience was something to really remember. It had such a cult following, it was so influential on the industry, Paul Heyman was at the helm, it was creating stars, it was influencing what other promotions were doing. What was it like to be a big part of it and in the middle of it? You were there for about three years, right?

Dawn Marie: Yes, a little over three years. I literally saw the rise and fall of ECW. It was pretty interesting. When I first started, we didn’t have TNA. We had some local TV. We were just starting to expand. We went from two shows to three shows to four show a week sometimes. We went from driving to places to flying to places. Then we got on TNN and we did that, and that was a great experience. It just felt like everything we were working for, all that blood, sweat, and tears was coming to a payoff. We were getting paid off for working so hard and proving to the world that we were worth something. Paul would take those people that no one else wanted and make something of us. That’s why we worked so hard, to prove that we were worth something. We were the red–headed step–children of wrestling. When we got to TNN, we were so excited. I think what happened was we grew a little too fast. Income increases. Newer stars. We were trying to keep up with the other two feds. We didn’t keep up or compete with them, but we still had to keep ourselves up to a certain degree that was expected. It’s just a lot of things started to happen. That’s when everything started to fall, I think. I think the financial expenses started becoming more than what we were taking in because we had to increase pay because we didn’t want our stars to leave. And that’s what happened.

Wade Keller:Who were some of the wrestlers who left during your time, and what was the impact of that on the locker room? Was it an exciting time because it created opportunity, or was it scary because big companies were plucking guys away whenever they wanted?

Dawn Marie: We were scared more than anything. The one thing that was very different between ECW and WWE, when I was at WWE and someone was gone, it was seen as an opportunity because a spot was opening. When we were at ECW, we were more of a team and when one of our teammates left, we weren’t as whole. Though we were happy that someone was given an opportunity to go to a bigger fed, it hurt us because we were a whole group. I really believe the ECW was definitely bigger than the individual stars. When someone left, we knew someone needed to step up and we had to hide the fact that this person is gone. Not hide it, but create interest somewhere else in the storyline where people won’t leave. Everyone stepped up when that happened and worked a little harder because we knew we had to. We didn’t have anywhere else to go. A lot of us didn’t want to go anywhere else.

Wade Keller:When was your first pay–per–view?

Dawn Marie: My first pay–per–view was November to Remember ’98. They had just a few before me.

Wade Keller:So you weren’t around when the pay–per–view carrot was being dangled, so to speak, when Paul was trying to make it work and a lot of guys were holding out for that, thinking that would change things. What was the atmosphere about pay–per–view by the time you got there? Did house shows not seem important by comparison?

Dawn Marie: Oh no. No, no, no. The people at ECW, we had so much pride in our work, we had so much pride in ECW because we created it together that honest to god we did not work any harder for a pay–per–view than we did for a small auditorium with 300 people. Everyone worked so hard. And if you didn’t, someone in the back would get on you about it. They would ask, “Hey, what was that?” It was a direct insult if someone didn’t pull their own weight. We were expected to. We were a team. You better perform as a team or get out. That’s how we felt. We respected and loved our work.

Wade Keller:What was the advantage the ECW locker room felt it had over WCW and the WWF at the time, which were competing for pay–per–view money?

Dawn Marie: I don’t think we felt we ever felt we had anything over anyone other than a camaraderie and a true respect for our own work. I really believe that every time we went out there, we competed with ourselves more than we competed with each other. Let me get better, let me get better. We were trying to work to get to that next level eventually. But I don’t think we ever felt we had anything more. We knew our place. We knew we were number three, and we were finally that. We were totally fine with being number three. We knew we couldn’t compete with Vince (McMahon). No one could compete with Vince. There was a short time WCW did, but Vince has been around a long time and it’s going to be a long time before someone can actually go toe–to–toe with him. That’s just being honest.

Wade Keller:You talk about everybody being a family and it was a team and everyone was out for one another, but it was a locker room that was controversial in many ways. It was full of, as Paul (Heyman) would say, misfits and castoffs. There was quite a bit of drug usage. Was it ever an uncomfortable situation for you because of the seedier elements of it, which permeated any locker room because it sounds as if in ECW was a pretty notorious locker room for those things?

Dawn Marie: It was a rough locker room. It was sort of like living in the hood compared to living in middle class America or upper–class America, if you want to just put in that type of criteria. But the one big lesson I learned at ECW, and I’ve said it a million times, is I learned to not expect anything from anyone, to just accept people who and what they are and don’t expect them to be like me or what I want them to be. That was one of the greatest lessons I’ve learned in my life and I’ve learned that at ECW because there were so many different types of elements there. If someone wants to do drugs or shoot up or do whatever they were doing, hey, do it. I don’t do it. I don’t think any less of you. But when you get out in that ring, you better perform your ass off because if you don’t, then I have a problem with you. Do what you want to do on your own time or in between matches, I don’t care. But, I’m the one away from my family, I’m the one travelling miles, I’m the one going hungry, I’m the one deferring my bills and this and that. You better ante up when you’re in the ring, or then I have a problem. But you want to go around, sleep around, you want to do drugs, you want to whatever, party, I don’t care; that’s your business. I don’t like you any less, I don’t like you any more. That’s the only thing.

Wade Keller:Was there ever a case when someone was doing so many drugs, or it seemed to be taking a toll on them—whatever it was, alcohol or drugs—and the locker room pulled them aside to talk to them? Or was it a case where everyone was doing their own thing and nobody was going to interfere and if someone ends up crashing into a wall, so be it?

Dawn Marie: No, we definitely did talk to each other. There were some people who were very out of control and you tried to talk to them and you tried to be their friend and be there for them. But, as we’ve seen through the deaths over the years, you can’t make someone stop doing drugs. They have to want to stop doing them. So all you can do is be their friend when they need you. But we definitely talked to them, and you’re going to get the same old story. “Eh, I know, you’re right. I’m gonna stop.” And then they don’t do it in front of you as much. (laughs) You know what I mean? It’s just the way it is. It’s the cancer of drug abuse. That’s in any business or any life. Not just wrestling. Anyone who has a drug problem, that’s the same story you get. I don’t want to say wrestling had a drug problem or ECW had a drug problem. You can go to any Fortune 500 company and I guarantee you they’ve put some of their executives through rehab. You just don’t hear about them as much.

Wade Keller:But there is something about the nomad lifestyle of wrestling and the reputation and the fact that you’re away from your family a lot of the time. When you’re on the road, that means you’re not going home to a stable environment. That’s not to say that every home is a stable environment, either, but obviously with wrestlers, it’s, “Well, what do we do tonight?” And the tradition is for there to be recreational with drugs whether it’s in a hotel or out and about. It is a business that does attract a greater variety of personalties that might be less conservative in lifestyle.

Dawn Marie: You know what, I believe you are either a follower or you’re a leader. And either you follow people around you or you march to your own beat and do your own thing. I’ve been in the business for 11 years and I can honest to God swear on my new son I never used the drugs. I’m not saying I didn’t go out and drink once in a while and have fun, but I never, ever made it a habit. And I never did drugs. And it was there.

Wade Keller:Not even a little marijuana?

Dawn Marie: (laughs) Well that I did back in high school. Come on, I’m from the ’70s. I’ve taken a sleeping pill maybe on the way overseas, just because I couldn’t sleep. But honest to God, other than that, I didn’t do anything recreationally. It’s either you do it or you don’t. If you’re a follower and you have a tendency to be a drug abuser, yes, it is there. Okay, it is available. If you were the type of person who is just not into it and you’re not going to do it, you’re not going to do it. I think it’s more personality.

Wade Keller:Like Lance Storm was probably never even tempted.

Dawn Marie: You know what, I saw Lance Storm eat a chocolate chip cookie once in all the years I’ve known him, and I wouldn’t even let him enjoy it. I sat there and stared at him do it. I felt I had to watch that go in his mouth. The only reason he ate it was because a little girl made it for him. Okay. Lance Storm does not do drugs.

Wade Keller:What did Lance Storm eat? How do you go on the road and find a way to eat healthy?

Dawn Marie: He ate really well. I mean, I used to make fun of him all the time because I would pretend I was him ordering. He would go to a restaurant and order eggs and dry toast or pancakes dry and he would eat really well. He would go to Cracker Barrel, which was one of his favorite places, and he would get a salad and eat really well.

Wade Keller:It’s tough at those places to find healthy options.

Dawn Marie: You have to make time to stop and eat. He didn’t go to McDonalds and do a drive–thru. He would wake up early and sit down at IHOP and have a sitdown breakfast. He would go and have a sitdown lunch, sitdown dinner. He would drink protein shakes in the arenas. He made the extra time to go and be able to sit down and eat healthy.

Wade Keller:He was more the exception to the rule than the rule, obviously, in ECW, but were there guys who looked down at the lifestyle or physical condition or the way others conducted themselves, or were most people like you, where if you weren’t on that end of the scale, you were very accepting of it?

Dawn Marie: We all made fun of each other. Like anything, you spend so much time with each other, you love each other, you hate each other. There were some of us who stayed very great friends, and some of us who can’t stand the sight or hear the mention of their name. It’s like anything, you spend so much time with people, there are different personalities that get along and don’t get along. I love Lance. Lance is, like, the epitome of men to me, but I still make fun of him and he’ll make fun of me and my little quirks, you know? When people make fun of you, you never know if they really hate you or like you. You know when you leave the business who stays in touch.

Wade Keller:Paul Heyman. Fascinating, fascinating character.

Dawn Marie: Really? (laughs)

Wade Keller:What did you think of Paul early on? Had you seen enough of his stuff to know him at least as a performer? Did you follow the inside of the industry enough to know what his reputation was? Or did you kind of walk in with a clean slate with him?

Dawn Marie: No, everyone knew the stories of Paul because most people who had stories about Paul had bad experiences about Paul. People who had good experiences with Paul were still working for him. So you always heard the horror stories of Paul. I went there just looking for an opportunity and Paul was great to me. I just can’t say enough about him. He’s just a wonderful friend, and he’s still my friend. Even after ECW shut down, we kept in touch. There were times he would sit there and start talking about trying to get me up here. I’d tell him, “Paul, I don’t want to talk about work. I’m not here to talk about wrestling. I’m here to see Paul my friend. You’re not responsible for keeping me employed, I am. And that used to make me so mad after ECW closed down, people would say, “Oh, Paul didn’t take me with him and get me a job.” I actually had some heat with people because I would say, “You know what, it’s not his job to keep you employed, it’s your job. Bring something to the plate and regardless of whether he likes you or not, you’re going to be there. People don’t like to hear the truth. But, I guess I’m a little bit too truthful sometimes. I’m known for it.

Wade Keller:Was there any aspect of dealing with Paul personally, as much as you respected him and felt you were a friend and he was out for your best interests, that were frustrating?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, there was. Sometimes you’d get very frustrated because he’d push you because he knew he could get better out of you. Sometimes you’d get complacent in your work and he would push you. You’d get annoyed. There was a long time that I didn’t get along with Francine. I still don’t. And it was very frustrating to me that I had to work with her in and out and no one would say anything to her and she treated me like sh–– and everyone knew it. Paul knew it and Tommy (Dreamer) knew it. They’d seen it with their own eyes and it was just absolutely ridiculous. It was frustrating to me that no one would have her cut it out. It was absolutely unbearable the way she was.

Wade Keller:What did she do?

Dawn Marie: For instance, if we were talking over a match, like say me, Lance, and at the time she was working with Scotty, and her, and she would refer to me as “she, her, and it” to my face. She would say, “Can you tell it that I’m gonna be standing over on this side of the ring,” and I’d be right there. Or, “Can you tell her” or “Can she do this?” Just ridiculous nonsense. Whatever.

Wade Keller:What was that about?

Dawn Marie: I don’t know. Whatever it was, I’ll never talk bad about anybody in the industry, but I have no respect for her. If she was on fire in the middle of the street, I wouldn’t stop to piss on her to put her out. I really wouldn’t. (laughs). I really wouldn’t.

Wade Keller:Talk about the run-in you had with Francine backstage at the ECW One Night Stand pay-per-view last June?

Dawn Marie: Well, I come walking into the locker room happy to see everyone and I'm walking in with my bags still in my hand and I saw her just standing there. It said hello to everybody and I went to go put my hand out and shake her hand, just being professional. I said, "Hi, Franny, how are you?" She went to grab my hand, but then she turned away like she couldn't be bothered. I grabbed her hand as she was turning and I looked her straight in the face and I said, "You're just as pleasant as usual." I just threw her hand down and I just walked away.

Wade Keller:You could never figure out why she was this way towards you? There was just such a history between you two, but it was one of those things where she just had a rivalry?

Dawn Marie: I never figured out why she didn't like me. When I first started there, I never had a problem with her. I was brought in a way where if you did, you just kept it to yourself. (The rivalry started) back in the ECW days, probably when Tammy left ECW. She was so focused on getting rid of Tammy - since she was the bigger star than her - that she never really paid attention to me. Here I was this newcomer and I was not any competition to her at all. Then when Tammy left, I was getting better as a professional, I was getting more airtime and I was growing. I came out of nowhere to her as if she thought, 'I didn't see this happening.' I was the next thing she needed to get out of the way. I don't think she was jealous. I don't want to say that. I hate when women use the jealousy reason. I believe that she was just trying to protect her turf and her positioning. I believe that she's the type of person that would rather spend time eliminating competition or anyone who may be better or similar in popularity rather than bettering herself. She wouldn't put the time into bettering herself. She would lie and say, "I went to wrestling school.' She never went to wrestling school. People used to laugh about that in the locker room. She learned how to take bumps. That was it. Have you ever seen her do a wrestling match? No. If she ever did a mixed tag, it was a very protected situation. Let's all go back and watch it. The proof is all there. I don't care if that's what she chooses to do, but don't lie about your accomplishments. I just think she's the type of person that would exercise everything to get rid of her competition so that she looks better rather than bettering herself and her own quality to look like she's improving. Hey, if that's what she wants to do, I don't hate her for it. That's fine. If you want to be lazy about your career, that's your choice. Personally, I compete with myself. I don't compete with the people around me. I always did. I always wanted to get better and compare my work to myself. That's how I was growing as a professional. Honestly, everybody is different. If everyone were the same, we wouldn't have jobs. I wouldn't have been around for eleven years if I were the same as everyone else. I always looked at what I did best and tried to make that better. That's why I was important. I don't want to be like Francine, Lita, or Trish. They already have it. I don't want to be like that.

Wade Keller:In both ECW and WWE, were there differences in how the women interacted with each other compared to how the men interacted with each other or were there the same alliances, feuds, and rivalries? Were women in particularly different in any way?

Dawn Marie: The women's group in WWE was so much better and different. We all knew our roles. We all knew that we were different. There was a much different level of professionalism. I didn't need to be like Torrie (Wilson). Torrie didn't need to be like me. We knew what our situations were. We knew where our spots were. WWE was very good at making sure they had chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry when it came to the women. As opposed to what they're doing know, I believe it's just vanilla. When I was there, everyone had their own little niche and we respected it. We all did our best in getting that over. By the same respect, they would do whatever they could get our little niche over. Everyone had their own little spot.

Wade Keller:As far as the ECW locker room went, were there other problems the women had with each other? Was the rivalry between you and Francine the most obvious and well-known or there were other breakdowns between some of the other women who came through?

Dawn Marie: No, Francine hated anyone who came through. (laughs) The only person she got along with was Jazzmine. What kind of competition was there unless you want to be a porn star? Whatever. That's the only person she got along with in ECW. Once they both were in the independent scene, I heard that whole relationship broke down because they were competing for the same job. She (Francine) had to do with Jazz getting fired. Jazz was there for a short period of time before she was rehired. She was out for Lita when she first came because she couldn't compete with her. Lita was brand new in the business as Amy Dumas, but she (Francine) couldn't compete with her athleticism and she didn't want that exposed. Tammy came in and she was a superstar. Francine hated her. She did everything she could possibly do to get rid of her. When I went solo, she wanted me gone. She did everything possible to make me miserable to leave and make everyone hate me. I wasn't there during the Beulah days, but I heard they were worse than her and I. That wasn't made public because they weren't mainstream at the time. This is gossip, but the reason Beulah left was because she couldn't stand Francine anymore. She went back and did her schooling, which was the best thing she ever did. I had the privilege of meeting her at the ECW Reunion show and she's a great girl. She is so smart and she has a beautiful family. The best thing that ever happened to her was leaving and going to school and pursuing her career in life. She's happy as anything. She should be thanking Francine for being such a bitch because she probably wouldn't have all that.

Wade Keller:I want to talk about the ECW Reunion PPV itself. When you first heard they were doing that, was your first reaction 'good idea' or 'not good idea?'

Dawn Marie: I was excited. Any chance to work with Lance and P.J. (Justin Credible) is great. I loved it. I didn't think they were going to bring WWE into it. I thought it was just to recapture the ECW feeling of what it was; not to back to the old storyline of ECW invading WWE as opposed to our reunion show. I just loved the fact that my last show with WWE was with Lance and P.J. I couldn't ask for any better finale to my career. I wish my career were longer there, don't get me wrong. If that was my last show, I'm happy that's what it was.

Wade Keller:As plans started to come out and you knew WWE was involved - it's understandable you wanted it to be a pure ECW show - do you think that there could have been an ECW show with just ECW wrestlers and it would have been successful?

Dawn Marie: I definitely think it would have a success. The fans that came to see that show were ECW fans. How many years has ECW been closed down? A long time. What company can actually have a reunion show with such a cult following? I heard they're doing another one this year and it will be the same exact same fans. I can do independent shows today and I still have the exact fans during my ECW career. I still get emails from my ECW fans. I believe that a lot of my fans came from ECW more than WWE. The ECW fans just follow you from when you first start. Some of my more loyal fans came from ECW.

Wade Keller:How do you think they did producing the show in terms of the matches they chose, the way it was scripted, the booking, how it was laid out, and the setting? Did it capture the ECW spirit?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, I guess so. I thought it lost some of its flavor with WWE issues in there once people would come out. I may be wrong, but did Rob (Van Dam) do an interview comparing the two?

Wade Keller:He did an interview - one of his best ever - and he talked about not having any creative geniuses scripting him that night. He talked up the ECW brand that it doesn't need storylines.

Dawn Marie: I thought that was the best promo ever from Rob. I actually told him that when he came through the curtain. It came from the heart. I believe that's where a lot is missing when it comes to these storylines that are so scripted. The verbiage is so scripted. If it's not coming from the heart, it's not believable. I feel that a lot of the flavor of ECW was lost when you add the comparisons and having WWE stars there. It wasn't an ECW show. If it was an ECW Reunion show, it's an ECW Reunion show. No comparisons. When we did TV at TNN, we didn't talk about WWE. Why are we talking about it then?

Wade Keller:Do you think the rationale behind it was WWE being fearful that it would bomb on PPV unless they brought their stars over to supplement it? Or, was it because people in WWE - including Vince McMahon - thought it would do well without WWE stars and they feared that because they wouldn't be able to share credit?

Dawn Marie: I believe the latter. They used the first example as the reason they did it. It's an excuse because they will never admit to it. 'We have to bring our main stars or else it's going to flop for us.' The bottom line is people bought seats not knowing they were coming. People bought seats before they knew they were coming.

Wade Keller:What was the intermixing like between the ECW wrestlers who had not landed jobs in WWE, the former ECW wrestlers who were in WWE, and the WWE wrestlers who had never been in ECW? Did everyone mingle just fine? Did everyone break into factions based on those three categories?

Dawn Marie: Everyone was fine. In WWE, the one thing I've always been proud of is the talent has always been professional. They are very confident in their skills and jobs. There were a lot of top guys there and they're not going to be rude, mean, or stand-offish to people who are at a lower level than they are. That would be ridiculous. (laughs) No one is taking JBL's job that is going to be hired from ECW. Everyone was fine. As far as the ECW stars who weren't under contract at the time, they were just happy to have a chance or a tryout in a sense. It was great that a lot of people were hired from that show. Anytime you get in front of Vince (McMahon), you don't know what you're going to spark in his head. A lot of people did get hired and I'm really happy for them. The whole situation was a plus.

Wade Keller:Did JBL handle himself well behind the scenes?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, I didn't see any problem with him. I didn't see the whole thing that went down with (Blue) Meanie. I didn't notice anything at the end of the night. I was just packing up; I was tired. I didn't see any problems in the locker room.

Wade Keller:Do you think some of the pure ECW wrestlers and talent wanted to show WWE wrestlers - who were there in person and had never experienced ECW before - what ECW was all about? It came across - from Paul E. on down - that there was a sense of "you heard about the bingo hall promotion, you heard so many things about us, so many people have downplayed what it was all about, and now you get to see first-hand what it was all about."

Dawn Marie: I definitely do. I think that might have been some of the fuel. They were just so happy to show what they did and loved so much. They just wanted to show it one more time if it may have been the last time. We never really had a finale. I was very thankful to Vince to do something like that. It's always very hard to let go of something if you never get to say goodbye. We did put our best foot forward because we were never able to do it. A lot of people wanted that to be their last ECW performance so they put their best foot forward to have something to be proud of.

Wade Keller:At the time, did you think there was any hope or thought that there would be an annual event or a follow up?

Dawn Marie: I don't know. I didn't even think about it. I was a WWE employee and I had a job. I had a different mindset and I was thinking much differently than people were not employees. I wasn't worried if it was going to happen again next year. Maybe some of these guys that weren't employed were hoping to get in front of Vince and look for a job or just to renew their independent work. It's a different mindset depending on where you are at in your career.

Wade Keller:When the show was over, was there a group celebration among everybody that things went really well? Or, was the attitude after the show was over, 'we're getting older and we can't go like we used to?' Was it on either extreme?

Dawn Marie: Everyone was really excited and just happy with their performances. Hey, we all get older. Things hurt a little more. A lot of these guys have been working on the independents and they get pretty beat up out there. They're working with guys who have less experience and it's a lot more dangerous than working with guys who know what they're doing and are protecting you. Everyone was very proud and happy. It was more of a celebration than anything.

Wade Keller:How did Paul Heyman handle things behind the scenes? Did he address everybody beforehand, during, or afterwards?

Dawn Marie: The gorilla position was in the center of where the locker rooms were. I was able to sit over there. One of my favorite things I did backstage that night was just watching Paul watch the monitor. This was being done on a grander scale than he ever thought. I'm sure he thought about it, but it never happened or occurred. I was just so happy for him. This was his dream and he put a lot of his life and everything into it. It was just a great experience to watch him be so happy and see his dream being fulfilled. He made so many people's lives different. People tend to forget that. They only think and remember the bad about Paul. It was nice to be able to step back and for once watch Paul's dream being fulfilled. I was really happy to experience that.

Wade Keller:Do you think he felt comfortable and happy with the amount of creative control he was given? Wasn't Vince McMahon right near him during this process?

Dawn Marie: Yes, Vince was sitting right next to him. Paul doesn't voice his opinion very much. I don't know. From watching Paul, he was very happy. He was very proud of everybody. Paul watched everyone out there grow up. I'm sure he was just watching it and he was just happy.

Wade Keller:Did you get a sense of what Vince McMahon's body language was?

Dawn Marie: I think Vince was very surprised and happy about the whole thing and he's doing another one. ECW is the type of thing where you have to watch a live event to really get the feel of what ECW was all about. For the first time, I really think he got a feel of what ECW was about. It wasn't that garbage trash match that everyone always talks about. I think he really saw the camaraderie, the hard work, the ethics, the different style, how we know how to play the crowd and work the audience, and I think he was very surprised.

Wade Keller:And that rock concert atmosphere, the passion, and relationships.

Dawn Marie: It's a different feel. And it's something you can only experience by being there.

Wade Keller:That's important for Vince McMahon to see that there is another way to promote professional wrestling in a way that is even beyond how his brain even comprehended. He's only seen his product over the years in person. There really can be a different feeling you get at a wrestling show. I don't know if that's translated into anything in his product in the eight months since. It was healthy for him and everyone in the WWE creative team and management who were there to see that so maybe little pieces of ECW will live on in other ways.

Dawn Marie: I hope so. At least I could think that, in this business, if you're a professional and you truly love the business and it's truly in your heart, you always want to leave thinking you changed it in a positive way in some aspect. If that's the way my contribution changes it, then great.

Wade Keller:How about the news that there will be another one? It's doubtful given circumstances that you'll be invited to be part of it...

Dawn Marie: I doubt it (laughs).

Wade Keller:Do you feel bad about it? Do you wish, all other things aside, that you wish you could be part of that? Or are you happy with the one appearance?

Dawn Marie: I'm not unhappy. I'm not disappointed. I got to say my good bye. I got to work with Lance and P.J. I highly, highly doubt they'll be inviting me back with these circumstances right now. That's fine. I'm fine with it, yeah. If they offered me to come back, I don't want to say I wouldn't, but I highly doubt it.

Wade Keller:It might be tough for you to make the case you're making regarding your firing, but also agree to work for them for one night?

Dawn Marie: I feel very strongly about my family right now. I just have bad feelings about it. I feel like they didn't do right by my family and me. Not that they owe my family anything, but in respect to what they did to me, it affects my family, and supposedly they're a family-oriented company. No one owes you anything. But I do expect you to keep your word. That kind of thing. I'll just leave it at that.

Wade Keller:Do you think it's a smart thing to do another ECW PPV? Given ECW's overall story, the whole history of the promotion, last year's event was a real fitting conclusion to the story. It could be a great final chapter. By doing another one, there's a risk that it will seem like someone staying a little too long at a party. There's also the financial aspect, since they might get another good buyrate out of it, so maybe it's worth it. Would you like to see One Night Stand truly be the final chapter?

Dawn Marie: If it's a reunion show, I guess they could do it every year. Reunions are every year, every couple of years, whatever. But if it was a finale, they should just leave it as a finale and keep their word.

Wade Keller:How did you interpret One Night Stand? A finale or a reunion show that could be annual?

Dawn Marie: Personally, I looked at it as a finale. But I don't know what their intentions were. I'm not in the office. I know they did very well financially. You know what, if they do it every year and my friends can get a payday out of it, I hope they do do it every year. They get on TV for that one time and they can refresh their indy bookings from it, I'm happy for them and their families. People don't look past that these people are wrestlers. These people have families and children and wives and husbands and I feel bad for them. It's not an easy lifestyle. If they could just make a few extra bucks, I'm happy for them. Whatever. My heart goes to the wrestlers, not to the promotion. It goes to the employees that made ECW. ECW was not - how can I say this? ECW did not stand on its own value of the name and whoever came to work there people loved. ECW was the core group of people that worked there. They made what ECW was. ECW didn't make the stars. The stars made the ECW, okay? Which is very different from WWE in my opinion. The WWE logo gives you instant star quality. You go work there, you're an instant star because you work for the WWE. The true star is WWE. With ECW, the stars made ECW a star brand in my opinion. Does that make any sense?

Wade Keller:It does. There were people who came to ECW who clearly didn't fit in, and ECW didn't make them a star, they just weren't the right for ECW.

Dawn Marie: ECW became a mainstream name and a star in a sense because that core set of people who really worked hard and made that name value. In WWE, you become a name-value because you work for WWE. It's reversed, I believe.

Wade Keller:ECW became a brand name that could draw on its own in and of itself. It was larger than any other brand name in wrestling history, relative to its size. But some wrestlers came in and it didn't seem like they fit, even if they were more talented than half of the roster.

Dawn Marie: Exactly. There were many people who were bigger stars than the stars that were at ECW that could not make it. I believe they could almost lose their star value if they stayed. Because it just didn't work for them. The WWE name brand can't give them any more validation. If you work for WWE, you're instantly validated, you're a superstar.

Wade Keller:Were you disappointed that any top ECW names couldn't be there, such as Raven or Public Enemy, each for very different reasons?

Dawn Marie: Raven was still on TV with TNA. Public Enemy were a big part of the growth of ECW and the tag team division. It was sad they weren't there.

Wade Keller:Were you in ECW while you were there?

Dawn Marie: No, I wasn't. I worked with them on the indies. I did know them both personally. They were very nice to me, very professional. I think they were definitely an asset to the company. Ted Petty was very nice man. You sometimes wonder, how was he in wrestling, you know? He truly loved the business. He was a good guy.

Wade Keller:The Public Enemy epitomized early on what Tazz and Paul E. would often talk about, that ECW was a group of misfits who didn't fit in anywhere else, and Heyman found a way to bring out their strengths and hide their weaknesses.

Dawn Marie: I think he used to compare it to the (Oakland) Raiders. Yeah, I've said that a million times. Paul has this gift of taking someone and just pulling their best out. He can look at someone and just know what they're good at and what they're not. Hide their flaws and emphasize their gifts. That's what he did. He took the people that nobody wanted to take time with or deal with and he made stars out of them, or allowed them to be stars.

Wade Keller:Let's go back to ECW and step away from the ECW PPV discussion. When did you get a sense that things were winding down for ECW and that might not, or probably wouldn't survive? Do you remember when that hit you, or was that feeling there all the time? Were you always on edge, but somehow Paul just kept finding ways to keep things going so you stopped thinking that way?

Dawn Marie: Deep down inside we all knew things weren't necessarily running as smoothly as they were supposed to. We were having problems with the checks and this and that. It's always the first sign. We all just really wanted to believe that it was going to be different, that Paul would figure out a way, or this really isn't just happening. You have to understand, a lot of us came from the indies to there. So we were used to not getting paid. We were used to things going a little awry. We hadn't worked for major companies, so (we weren't accustomed to our checks coming on time). So it was sort of like, we just have to endure this and we'll get through it. I think deep down inside, we kind of knew things weren't going right, but we didn't know if it was going to be over. We thought we might have to take a step back, but we would definitely go back forward. I don't think people really realized it was going to be over.

Wade Keller:Did you notice a chance in Paul Heyman as checks stopped coming in or things weren't going well?

Dawn Marie: No. Not with me. Paul was always very good to me, always very pleasant. Paul (laughs) has a saying. I'd say, "You're always smiling." He's goes, "Ah, it keeps your enemies guessing!" (laughs) It's so true. Paul could be so stressed out inside and he'll always just walk past you and say hi with a smile on his face. He just doesn't show his card. He has a great poker face. He is always smiling. He would always say no matter how many years I knew him, "Ah, it keeps your enemies guessing, wondering what you're up to." He's right. Don't let people on. You have to move foward and try to get through things.

Wade Keller:He changed physically, even if he wore a smile. It was clear he was worn out, he had gained weight, the stress in his face was there. That was evident from seeing how he looked at the beginning of ECW versus the end and how much better he looked by the time the ECW reunion show took place and he had some time away from ECW.

Dawn Marie: I wouldn't compare the more polished look of his once he got to WWE. We all looked more polished once we go up there. It's a different animal, okay. He was tired, he was worn out, he gained a little weight. But, you know what, Paul doesn't sleep, and Paul's always stressed out. I noticed a difference, but I didn't put two and two together that it was because the company was crumbling. Maybe he's just not sleeping, maybe he's busy working on a plan. You just never knew what he was up to. You knew he didn't delegate responsibilies. Was it because he was overworked? Maybe he was so worn out looking because he was moving forward and finding us all a new network. You didn't know with Paul. To compare what he looked like when ECW finished to what he looked like at WWE, you know, you could look at anyone on the roster who worked somewhere else before they worked for WWE; you always looked more polished once you were there. It's just part of it. You're on a grander level. You have more money. You are more public. You have everything there for you.

Wade Keller:Regarding the ECW crew that was working in the final six months or year of ECW's existence, did you feel they were trying to live up to what was accomplished by the previous two or three major incarnations of ECW's locker room. There was the Public Enemy/Shane Douglas era, then there was Tazz and the Eliminators, and at the end it was Rob Van Dam, Mike Awesome, The Impact Players. Did the last crew feel pressure to live up to the standards of the previous roster leaders?

Dawn Marie: You know, we were very old school in that locker room. You always respected the people that came before you. You always did your best because if you disrespected that ring in any aspect, whether it be just being lazy or whatever, you were disrespecting those who came before you. So you always tried to do that, to live up to the people who came before you. But I also believe that the performances got better because they wanted to be better. We wanted to bring ECW to another level. Not necessarily because we wanted to compete with what came before them. That just came out of respect in their work. But I think the more polished look, that's just the cycle of wrestling. You have to get bigger and better. Everything gets bigger and better, and you have to keep up with that cycle. I think the same thing with the stars who were at ECW. We had to get bigger and better to keep up with the cycle of wrestling.

Wade Keller:Do you think the crew at that point felt they were bigger and better, or was it not really talked about? I ask that because there was a feeling during the pay-per-view days of ECW, which is what you were exclusively part of, that in certain ways, and this is the way it works with any band that puts out a third or fourth CD, people begin saying they aren't as good as they were before. Was there any sense of an inferiority complex, or was there even a sense of being better, or was it just a continuum?

Dawn Marie: I think it was just a continuation. I don't think anybody said they were better than the person who was there before. We weren't bread like that. We didn't say that. You don't compare yourself to veterans. That's a very old school mentality. You don't compare yourself to a veteran. If someone came up to us in a locker room or I would hope today but probably not because there's no more locker room ethics, but if someone came up to you and said, "I'm as good as Ric Flair!" You would look at that person and say, "You're an asshole. How dare you compare yourself with a Ric Flair." You were the biggest asshole in the locker room to compare yourself to a veteran. We didn't compare ourselves to those who came before us. We just tried to continue to perform at a level that we could be proud of and continue their legacy. That's what wrestling is about - continuing legacy. Are there athletes today that are in that ring that fly higher and stronger than Snuka did off that top rope? Yes. But do you say they were better than them? No. Without Snuka doing that off the top rope, you wouldn't have the people today doing it off the top rope maybe a step higher or a little crazier or a little more defined or a little bit more creative. You don't compare yourself that way and say "I'm better." You just say, "Thank god they were there because it gave me the idea today to do it just that much more creatively."

Wade Keller:Is there anything that stands out as mistakes or bad decisions creatively that Paul Heyman made along the way? Did you ever roll your eyes and shrug and say that wasn't how you'd have done it?

Dawn Marie: No. Because, Paul kept things very quiet. We didn't know what he was doing. Paul's not perfect. No one is. I'm sure he made mistakes, just as Vince McMahon makes mistakes. The XFL was probably a huge mistake. Does it mean he's a bad businessman? No, he made a mistake. The only thing is Vince McMahon has a lot more money to cover up his mistakes and keep going. Maybe Paul made a mistake somewhere along the line. Maybe a few. But we just didn't have the assets to continue on. In any business there's mistakes; you just hope there's enough funds to recuperate from them. Not to say Vince is a bad businessman or anything, but he made mistakes. But the WWE has so much money, they can recuperate.

Wade Keller:What did you think of men physically abusing women in ECW? It was a real common theme to ECW throughout it's existence - men beating up women and the fans cheering it. I was always taken aback by that. I never liked that aspect of Paul's booking, and he always seemed to go back to that.

Dawn Marie: Paul didn't have women being beaten in an abusive situation or like a wife at home being beaten by a husband. It was never a situation like that. We were always still there as athletes. It was part of the show. We were managers. We were part of the group that was going on. Yes, it was abusive, but not like a battered wife situation. Never like that. You have your extremists who will say a man should never hit a woman. Yes, I agree with that. But here we are in an arena, a wrestling ring, bottom line is it's still wrestling, it's a physical business. He never had, like when Beulah and Tommy (Dreamer) were together, Tommy beat Beulah for being bad and not listening. It was never anything like that. It was always, maybe, whoever his opponent was tripped her up and gave her a move and it made sense to the storyline of the continuation of the story. It was never a battered woman syndrome. So, I mean, if you want to be extreme and say men were beating women, well, no, they weren't beating women, they were beating the manager. That's how I looked at it. I wasn't a beaten woman. I was a beaten manager. I was part of the group with the men and caught in the crossfire.

Wade Keller:It seemed like the fans, largely male fans, twentysomethings, seemed to take a little more joy in a male babyface beating up, piledriving, doing whatever to a female manager, more so than a male manager.

Dawn Marie: The reason why was maybe that manager was interfering with that babyface and doing what was right for all mankind in that sense. It wasn't because she was a woman, he did this. It was more she kept interfering to the point where he couldn't accomplish what was right. Whether it was a male or a female as a manager, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got bamboozled. That was the way it was perceived. We were always in the wrong place at the wrong time and we got caught. It was never the battered syndrome. So I believe it was done in a tasteful way in an athletic, male-dominated world wrestling way or whatever (laughs).

Wade Keller:What about the announcement of WWE drug testing? When you were in WWE, there was no drug testing. Do you think that the Wellness Program is a good step in that it will be welcomed by wrestlers and it's a good move for the health of everybody, or was it a p.r. move or bad for wrestling?

Dawn Marie: I think it's the greatest thing ever. Any kind of test like that is good for any company, whether it be in the wrestling or athletic world and regular companies like computer companies. Drugs are out there. Some people have problems with them. Some people don't. And if there's a way that will deter people from doing it, I think that's great. It's a real serious disease. If there's a way they can help people with it, I think it's the best thing in the world.

Wade Keller:Do you think wrestlers will welcome it, the majority will be glad it's there? Will the ones who actually do abuse pain pills are going to be very nervous about this policy?

Dawn Marie: Well, that's obvious. I mean, even if they did random drug testing at Microsoft, anyone that does or uses is going to be nervous about it. Wrestling and business is the same thing. Anyone who uses will not want (the testing) because it's going to deter them from being able to. It's human nature. I don't think it has to be a wrestling thing or an athlete thing. I just think it's a human nature thing. You do something wrong and you're in a situation where you may get caught and lose your job, you don't want it (laughs). It's pretty basic.

Wade Keller:To what extend did you know of that you would consider dangerous or on the verge of becoming dangerous while you were there during your last year? Were as many people using in ECW, but they just weren't as open about it? Or do you think it was a much smaller percentage using drugs in WWE compared to ECW?

Dawn Marie: Definitely comparing it to ECW, where it was a very open situation, it wasn't an open situation in WWE that anyone was using. I didn't use, so people didn't do it in front of me if they were. It wasn't something that people would probably be proud of or want out there if they were using, so I don't know what the situation was. If anyone is using, it's not good for them, especially for the travel schedule and everything like that. It's hard. And it's going to wear on your body even worse. I'm happy that they're doing this drug testing because, you know, it will make them stop or slow down or whatever - go get the help that they need.

Wade Keller:Is there any downside at all to drug testing from your perspective, as somebody who has the best interests of your colleagues whom you respect in mind? Is there any downside such as a privacy issue or treating wrestlers like kids issue or whatever excuse someone might have for being against the policy?

Dawn Marie: No, I don't think there's anything negative about it. It's very sad. I think the reason drugs and wrestlers are such a big issue is we have had a lot of deaths and wrestlers who have died of overdoses and stuff like that. What's sad is there are a lot of injuries in this business and you have to take pain pills or whatever to get through it. Then what happens is one doesn't work anymore or two doesn't work anymore. I'm assuming, because I didn't take them. Hopefully if that's the situation, we have a drug test now, so those people who may be more prone to adding the pain pills rather than going to the doctor because there's no time to go, maybe now they'll go to the doctors or really be more conscious of how many they're supposed to be taking for whatever their ailment is. I think the bodies are going to last longer because now you're not masking your injuries.

Wade Keller:What does happen now from your experience when pain pills are now not an option?

Dawn Marie: Well, they are an option, they're just not allowed recreationally. They are an option if you are regulated through a doctor, which is fine, that's what they're used for.

Wade Keller:But being able to take excessive amounts is no longer an option, and if you build up a tolerance to the normal prescription level and you start taking more, it'll show up. The thing with pain pills is they're designed to help someone through a temporary situation, but there's nothing temporary about the aches and pains of a wrestler. It just gets worse. The grind keeps going and you get older and you add more to your bump card and you get more hurt. You need more and more pills to get through it. So wrestling is unique in that sense. That's what I'm wondering: What is the ripple effect of taking away the ability to take more than the one or two prescription pills over the long run when eventually those one or two pills don't really have any effect anymore?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, but a doctor is going to monitor that now. If someone's body is immune to it due to excessive injuries and someone who doesn't have injuries, a normal, regular person might need, I don't know how pain pills work, but four a day, say, or whatever, and a wrestler takes more frequently because of constant injuries and they're prescribed through a doctor, the doctor may now prescribe six a day. It's through a doctor. So, yeah, their tolerance is going to be higher, but it's still going to be monitored through a doctor. If this individual's body needs six a day rather than four of a normal person who only gets injured maybe once ever couple of years that might need them, it's still within a legal amount and it's still being monitored and it's a healthy amount for that individual.

Wade Keller:But no doctor is going to prescribe 40 pills?

Dawn Marie: No, no. But I don't think it's going to get to that if that is the situation because their tolerance isn't going to get up to 40 pills if they aren't doing them recreationally.

Wade Keller:That's what I'm asking. That's where that break point is now, where a doctor says, "You were at four, now you're at six. now you're at eight, now you're at ten, now you're at 12." At some point a doctor has to say something is wrong with that picture and says, "You can't wrestle right now until you get better."

Dawn Marie: Exactly. And that's what's going to happen. They're not going to let the tolerance get that high.

Wade Keller:So will that lead to a change in the schedule or how wrestlers wrestle if Vince McMahon now has to face the reality of the consequences of what he asks of his talents?

Dawn Marie: Maybe. I don't know. I don't have the constant injuries. I've never had the addiction. I don't know what these individuals are going through if they do have addictions. I feel bad for them. Honestly, it must be very scary for them right now with this drug testing and I feel bad for them, but at the same time, I'm happy for them because it's going to get under control. A lot of these guys, they've been doing it their whole lives and they don't know anything else. And I can imagine how scared they are if that's the only way they know how to tolerate or to continue in their business, and now it's going to be taken away. I'm happy for them because they're going to live longer and they're going to learn how to acclimate and work in a manner that they're not going to need them as often, and it's only going to be needed through a doctor. But at the same time, I feel sorry for them because they must be very scared. They have families to take care of and they don't know how to. It's like a win-lose situation.

Wade Keller:What about WWE's policy of not systematically testing for marijuana, but rather just testing for it when they see signs of abuse?

Dawn Marie: I'm not going to say marijuana's not a drug, but I think their problem is not marijuana right now. I think they need to address their major problem. Turn one stone over at a time. Deal with one thing at a time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Wade Keller:Do you think alcohol was a problem in WWE in recent years?

Dawn Marie: No, I don't think so.

Wade Keller:That was the drug of choice many years ago.

Dawn Marie: If it was a problem (recently), nobody even pays attention. It's a legal thing unless you're driving on it. So if someone is drinking, who pays attention. Even if it was, I wouldn't have even noticed. It's not something... I travelled alone a lot, so I didn't get to go out as much. Because I had to do a lot of the driving and stuff myself, it was harder for me, so I don't know what a lot of guys did. I didn't hang out as much as other people.

Wade Keller:How about your opinion on the schedule and what is demanded of talents? As you said, you didn't take as many bumps for as many years in a row as some of your colleagues did, but you definitely experienced the schedule itself, the travel, the days away, dealing with airports and rental car agencies and hotels and resutarants, spans of time away from home, short spans of time at home - just enough time to do laundry and pay bills. Talk about what that schedule does to you both physically and mentally, and offer any recommendations for how it might be changed for the betterment of the whole company.

Dawn Marie: It's not an easy life. People only see the five minutes you're on TV. It consumes you're entire life, it consumes your whole entire family's life. And yes, it's what we chose, and we love it, but it doesn't mean it's easy. Some of these guys make a lot of money and some of these guys aren't making that much at all. There's definitely a big gap between who makes money and who doesn't. But, it's very time consuming. I was on the road approximately 275 days a year and it definitely damages your family life. It's hard. How does it not? It definitely does. It's hard on your body. You don't sleep as much. You're beating it up. You're not really eating properly. You're eating a lot of fast food here and there. You don't have an actual schedule or regimen. It's hard. It's a lifestyle. But, hey, truck drivers are gone, too, all hours of the night all year round and home only a few hours. It's your job. It's what you chose. I'm not going to sit here and say someone feel sorry for me because I work 225 days a year, I got beat up for a living, my schedule is horrendous, I didn't have much family life. You know, it's what I chose. Don't feel sorry for me. It's what I chose. It's what I love. I wouldn't change it for anything in the world. Ever. I would do it all over again. I love my job, I love my career. I loved working for the WWE. I loved it. It was a dream come true. So, if you're asking me if it was hard, yes. Would I do it again. Yes. Does it beat up on your body and make you tired? Yes. They are all obvious answers. Should you feel sorry for me. No. (laughs) No. It's what I chose. Do you feel sorry for an Ultimate Fighter? No. It's what he chose. He gets beat up for a living. Same for a boxer. Or a truck driver who sits in his truck all night long or for weeks on end. Pilots are gone. Lots of people travel with their jobs. It's what you choose. I didn't choose to be home and work nine to five. I would feel sorry for me if I worked nine to five because it's not what I wanted to do, it's not me. George Napolitano (wrestling magazine writer/photographer) said something to me that will live with me forever and it really gave me a finality after I got fired. It really made me feel better about what I did. He said, "Dawn, if you never work again in the industry, you started something and you finished it. How many people could honestly say that? So be proud of yourself." I was going through a very, very hard time when I got released and I was very sad and very depressed and I went through a very hard time. He said, "Dawn, you should be proud of yourself. Don't be upset. You started something and you finished it." It did help some because, honestly, not too many people can say that. So, do I wish I was still employed? Yes. Do I wish I was still in my career, my profession? Yes. I wish I could go back three weeks ago. But the truth is, I can't because I don't have a job (laughs). But, at the same time, I have to think what my very dear friend said to me. I started something and finished it; be proud of it. He was there at the beginning and he was there at the end. So he knows how hard I worked.

Wade Keller:Do you think Vince McMahon in the long run would experience more success and in the end feel more fulfilled that his wrestlers enjoyed their careers even more by adjusting the schedule in any way? Do you think from a profit motive standpoint, even, he would get more out of his wrestlers in the long run?

Dawn Marie: Did I need a break personally? No. I didn't have anything to go home to. When I was with WWE, I didn't have a family. I had a fiance at home. Was it as hard on me as it was someone who had children or a newborn and a wife? It was probably a lot harder for them than it was me. I can't compare it now that I have a family because I haven't been back to work. Do some of these guys need breaks? Probably. You have family, you have children, you have a wife you want to keep intact. You want to heal your body. You're doing much crazier than I was. I was wrestling every night. Don't get me wrong. My body was beat up. But I was very fortunate not to get injured. I only had one injury in my career there which was just a torn ligament in my ankle which was not really a big deal. Some of these guys have injuries and injuries and injuries. You know, it's harder on them. But that's a personal opinion.

Wade Keller:With the way that WWE treats the wrestlers overall as independent contractors which is how they're classified, you're not allowed to work for anybody else. The definition of an independent contractor is you get to choose who you work for and on an event-to-event or job-to-job basis. Does that ever come up in discussions? Does anyone ever question WWE's contracts and the way that wrestlers are classified where the company gets all the benefits of the independent contractor classification, but the talents get zero benefits from that classification?

Dawn Marie: To this day there's a few no-nos or should I say rules in wrestling and questioning something like that is one of them. (laughs) You don't question that because the answer is going to be, "Well, go work somewhere else if you don't like it." That's been said to us before when we've questioned things. I can remember a meeting when they changed us to flying coach and Johnny Laurenaitis said, "If you don't like it, go work somewhere else." That's verbatim. That's not from Vince, but it's the number three guy. That's Johnny's answer to us. You don't question it. When that was questioned, that's what our answer was. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. There was nowhere else to go.

Wade Keller:What did you think of Laurenaitis?

Dawn Marie: No comment. (laughs) Now is not the time to ask my opinion of people.

Wade Keller:He took over for Jim Ross as V.P. of talent relations while you were there. Any thoughts on Jim Ross?

Dawn Marie: A good guy. Jim Ross was a great guy. You always hear these stories about Jim before I started there. He was in talent relations. I didn't have a problem with him. He was honest, he was to the point, you know when he likes you, you know when he doesn't. He tells you what he's thinking. I have respect for that. I can't get better or stop doing something wrong if you don't tell me I'm doing something wrong. Jim Ross is the first one to tell you. You might not like the way he talked to you, but you know what, you know where you stood (with him). He didn't try to be your friend, he didn't try to be your enemy. He just tried to be someone you worked for. That's it. And I liked that. But I'm a black and white person. I don't need you to be my friend, I want you to be my employer. Tell me what you want from me, tell me what you want done, tell me what you want done, tell me what I did wrong, and I'll fix it. If I don't know how to fix it, I'll ask you how to fix it. That's Jim Ross in a nutshell. That's Jim Ross. Very cut and dry. I like it.

Wade Keller:You're saying Laurenaitis was different than that? He wasn't just matter of fact?

Dawn Marie: Very different style. Very different style. I'm not saying he's better or worse. For some people that works. Right now is not the time to ask me my opinons.

Wade Keller:Were you proud in a way as a woman seeing Stephanie McMahon in the position of power that she had and how she conducted herself?

Dawn Marie: Stephanie was a great, great boss. I admired her. I'm not just saying that because she's a McMahon. You knew what she thought. Same thing with Jim. She was very cut and dry. She told you what she wanted. I found it very easy to work with her. Matter of fact, when I was doing my storyline with Torrie (Wilson) and her dad and that whole thing, I was getting direction from Dave Lagana. I was very confused and didn't like working with him very much. Very grey with explanations and I think he just didn't want to take responsibility for what went wrong. So I went to Stephanie and just told her my feelings about it and said, "If it's possible, can you work with me because there's too much grey area." Ever since I started working with her, my performances were just a complete turnaround. They were so much better. I grew as a heel. She just really taught me a lot and I loved working with her. As a matter of fact, I felt more comfortable going to her with any problems or situations I had, personal or professional, than anyone in the locker room.

Wade Keller:Did you see her grow as a leader in your time in WWE? She was given a position of great power at a very young age.

Dawn Marie: You know what, I only dealt with her professionally from the Torrie storyline on. I thought she was great. I really never had any problem with her. She was very approachable. Even personal problems, I always felt I could knock on her door and go talk to her and discuss anything. If I had storylines or opinions, I really felt I got a true answer and she listened. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Wade Keller:Did you get a chance to deal personally with Vince very much?

Dawn Marie: I dealt with him very minimally. I always went to Stephanie. There were a few situations where I did go to Vince and he was always very approachable and always available for me, which I admired because how many owners of a company in his position had an open door policy. I admired that. I think that's where a lot of my disappointment came from was that they didn't keep their word. I really admired them as people and employers and then when that happened I was just very (disappointed).

Wade Keller:When you say they didn't keep their word, can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Dawn Marie: They told me they were going to keep me employed through my pregnancy and after. That's about all I can talk about at this point.

Wade Keller:You filed a claim with the EEOC?

Dawn Marie: Yes, I'm pursuing my rights right now.

Wade Keller:You just can't talk any more about it because of the situation?

Dawn Marie: No, I can't.

Wade Keller:That's understandable. You talked about Laurenaitis a little bit, and also Ross, Vince, and Stephanie. What did you think of the way the creative team was set up? Do you think the structure was about right how the power was spread out and the hierarchy worked, or was there a better way to go about things and hiring people for those positions?

Dawn Marie: I don't think it's wrong hiring Hollywood writers to fill in the spaces, the blanks. But I really believe that someone who has never been in the ring in the wrestling industry can write wrestling. You can't. You don't know how to translate everything. I think the writers can come up with ideas, but I think you need a wrestling mind to convert it into a wrestling ring and translate it. And I think that's where a lot of the problems are.

Wade Keller:Did you sense there was a mutual respect between the writers and wrestlers?

Dawn Marie: No! (laughs) No. But I don't think it's the writers' fault. It's just they come from a different place and they are put in a situation that they don't belong. Wrestlers have egos. Rightfully so. We give our lives and it's a business we love. And when someone who has never stepped into the ring tells you what to do in your career or in your job that you know just can't work, but you have to try to make it work or you're going to lose your job, it's a very stressful situation. And you become resentful because the writers don't understand why you can't get it done, and we as wrestlers can't understand what the hell you want us to do. And it's not their fault. They're put in a situation that they are not ready to perform in.

Wade Keller:That would fall on the shoulders of Stephanie and Vince, would it not? Or is that just a necessary evil in the way it's set up? Or is there a better way for Stephanie to coordinate that end of the company?

Dawn Marie: I don't know. I'm not on that side of the business. I didn't really have much to do with them, so I don't know how it's run behind the scenes. All I know is they would come up to me and tell me what they wanted done and I would have to figure out a way to do it. Thank God I had Stephanie because she did a lot of the translating for me.

Wade Keller:Do you think there is a better way to do it?

Dawn Marie: I always think it's better when you have experience in there. There are so many experienced veterans that can really translate what's trying to be portrayed in a wrestling sense. I think the ideas are great. It's the translation that is getting screwed up.

Wade Keller:How about the agents? Did you have a favorite agent whom you worked with quite a bit?

Dawn Marie: We always worked with Fit. And Fit was great. A lot of my success was due to Fit. He taught us so much. He taught me how to wrestle. Another person I loved to go to for advice was Arn Anderson. He treated well those who want to learn the ins and outs of the psychology. He didnt treat us like women. He treated us like professionals. His translation of anything would be the same as if he was talking to one of the guys at any level. So, it was a pleasure working with him. I learned a lot about psychology through my work with him. I learned a lot about my work and the technical aspects of wrestling through Fit. So between the two, and Stephanie teaching me how to be a heel and not get cheered by turning any cheers to boos, I was very fortunate and I grew a lot while I was there. I really feel that I was just getting to a point that I could really excel as a heel in that industry. You don't really know what you're doing until you are in the business at least ten, twelve years.

Wade Keller:A lot of people don't make it that long.

Dawn Marie: I really believe it. Years ago, when you ssaw true successes of all these veterans, you didn't get to WWE until you were in the business eight, ten, twelve years. That's why they were all successes. You had all these icons. They did everything before. They did all the territories for years and years and years and years. When they finally understood the industry, that's when Vince picked them up. It takes years and years and years and years of experience and failures and successes. You learn just as much from your successes as you do your failures. I used to tell Fit when I would come back, "Don't just tell me what I did wrong. Tell me what I did right, too, because I might not realize I did it right." I didn't want to be stroked. It's because I might not have realized I did it right, and I want to do it right again! People only tell you about your failures. Tell me about my successes also because I need to learn from them too. This is the eighth and final installment of a three-hour-plus "Torch Talk" series with Dawn Marie, an ECW and WWE veteran. This segment of the interview, conducted on February 27, includes her comments on locker room leaders in WWE, the Al Wilson storyline, her thoughts on her diminished WWE push after the Al Wilson storyline, her prospects of going to TNA, her thoughts on various wrestlers she's worked with, and more.

Wade Keller:Were there locker room leaders among the wrestlers in WWE during your stay there, or did wrestlers just do their own thing?

Dawn Marie: There's always leaders. Undertaker, all your top guys. Eddie (Guerrero) was a leader. You could always go to him. There were lots of leaders.

Wade Keller:Was Triple H among the locker room leaders?

Dawn Marie: I didn't work on that (Raw) side, so I don't know. I never worked with Triple H. I only worked on the Smackdown brand. You had your leader for whatever aspect you were having problems with. You went to whomever.

Wade Keller:Was Kurt Angle considered a locker room leader for Smackdown?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, he was. His experience... he's worked with all the greats in the industry since he's been there. Yes, he hasn't been in the (pro wrestling) business that long, but he's worked top guys since he's been there, so that experience alone makes him grow so much faster.

Wade Keller:Talk about Eddie Guerrero and how you reacted and how you were affected when you heard he had died.

Dawn Marie: It was very sad. Eddie was a wonderful man. He had a beautiful family - beautiful wife and beautiful daughter I always admired his wife. She has been through so much with him. Just to be able to stand by him and love him, I mean, to see the two of them together was something. When she would look at him, it looked like she was looking at him for the first time. She loved him. You could just see how much she loved him and how much he loved her and his family. His little girls, I used to spend time with them. They used to come into the locker room. We'd play around and stuff. And he was just a wonderful man. He really helped me with my spirituality. I would go to him a lot and talk with him about personal issues and just my spirituality and different questions I may have had. He was a great man. I really believe that there is not one person he has come in touch with in the industry that they're life wasn't changed by knowing him because he was just that kind of person. Eddie was an amazing man, an amazing wrestler. He loved his family. Loved them! I just admired his wife. I used to always think, God, one day when I get married and have a family, I hope I can be the woman she is. To just be able to love and accept and be so forgiving. She didn't have an easy life. Any wife who is a wrestler's wife is not an easy life. I tip my hat to them because there has to be a lot of love to be a wrestler's wife. There really has to be.

Wade Keller:What do you think WWE should do for Eddie's family that they don't have to do?

Dawn Marie: I don't know. That's tough.

Wade Keller:If his wife can't make the house payments of the house they just moved into, should WWE step in and give an advance on all of Eddie's future royalties, for instance? They talk about how everyone is a family. Would that be a way to step up and show? Or since he was an independent contract, he died, he didn't have much or any life insurance, or adequate life insurance or savings, so now his family has to deal with it and we've rid ourselves of that obligation?

Dawn Marie: You're asking at the wrong time for me. If you were to ask me that question months ago or a year ago, I might have had a different answer, but I don't know today. What I think they would have done a year ago as to what I think they would do for someone's family today is two different answers.

Wade Keller:You think they have changed, or your belief of how they would react has changed?

Dawn Marie: My answer is to how they would react. Maybe a year ago I would have thought they were going to help them do this and that because they care. Today, I don't know anymore.

Wade Keller:As a traditionalist, what were your thoughts on the Al Wilson storyline (where you slept with the much-older father of your rival, Torrie Wilson)? You respect the history of wrestling and care about how it's present, so were you 100 percent comfortable with how that storyline was done, including having a death of a character as part of the conclusion, something you don't get very often in pro wrestling?

Dawn Marie: (laughs) I loved that storyline! I thought it was so much fun. It was great. Love it or hate it, it had great ratings. You never knew what to expect. It was so refreshing and different than what you were used to seeing. It was always the girls fights were catty. "Oh, she's more prettier than me so I don't like her!" Or, "She has bigger boobs than me and I don't like her!" This was different. I loved the storyline. I loved it. People can say what they want about it. It had amazing ratings. We were always in segment five, which is that one segment that is when most people turn off the TV, so they put the highest-rated segment there. It was refreshing. It wasn't the typical girls don't like each other angle because one is prettier than the other. And, you know what? I had more people come up to me with that storyline in airports and food courts and wherever I was. Is that really Torrie's father? Was that really his wiener in there? Was this that? I had so many people come up to me. Nothing in my career matched that storyline. I think people in the closet liked it, but they wouldn't admit it. (laughs) I think everyone who sh-- on it, but in reality they liked it because I never had the response to a storyline that I did for that one.

Wade Keller:Did you like how they concluded it?

Dawn Marie: It think they concluded it quickly because of, I don't know, I think there was a personal thing there somewhere along the line. I don't think they concluded it the way they wanted to.

Wade Keller:How do you think an alternate ending might have gone?

Dawn Marie: I know they were looking to then have some other storylines related to the will, the reading the will, bringing a brother in, and other things. I think somewhere along the line, there was a personal issue.

Wade Keller:With Torrie's comfort level?

Dawn Marie: I don't really know. I think either someone didn't like someone who was involved in the storyline, or someone in the storyline didn't necessarily want to continue it. It was one or the other. Because I know they were talking about going further with it, and then all of a sudden it just dropped and it was gone. There was something there personal, issues I didn't know about.

Wade Keller:Do you think they did not take full advantage of you and your character coming out of that storyline?

Dawn Marie: Yes. Because I had a lot of heat coming out of that storyline, and a lot of time was invested and a lot of popularity. Then I was off TV for a year, or almost that. A long time, other than little bit things. They never went anywhere with them, but they could have.

Wade Keller:How did that breakdown happen in the continuity of your push?

Dawn Marie: I don't know if it was a breakdown of continuity as much as maybe a personal thing. Like, I think, maybe someone decided they didn't want to use me.

Wade Keller:Do you have an idea of who that was and why?

Dawn Marie: I think it was a personal thing.

Wade Keller:Do you have a hunch who it is who made an issue of something personal?

Dawn Marie: I really don't know. It might not have been. Maybe it's a self-conscious thing. Maybe it wasn't a personal thing. Maybe they just didn't want me going in that direction, so they took me away from it for a while. Maybe they didn't want me being such a heel. Because I was really getting over as a really big heel. The only other attractive heels they had at that level was Stephanie - and that was at a bigger level. How many women came out and were heels who could really grab a mic and turn a cheer to a boo. There wasn't anybody. Maybe I'm being cocky, but I can't think of anyone, especially at the time I was there.

Wade Keller:How did Al Wilson handle his introduction into the whole wrestling environment?

Dawn Marie: Oh, Al was great. I loved working with Al. Al was funny. He was up for anything. He was great. I loved working with Al. Al was game for anything. He was, like, "Okay." He was just thrilled to be there. He was retired. He got to spend time with Torrie. He was loving it. I know for a fact he even wanted to come back afterward. He said, "Maybe I can come back from the dead." Or this or that.

Wade Keller:There's always a twin brother out there somewhere.

Dawn Marie: He wanted it to continue. He loved it. Loved it! I don't know why it stopped, to be honest with you. Maybe Torrie didn't like the storyline anymore. Or maybe someone wanted to do something different with Torrie. I don't really remember where we went from that. I know I personally loved it. I don't know if maybe she didn't want to go any further with it. I don't know if maybe someone in creative wanted to go somewhere different with her with it, so I kind of got pushed aside because she was definitely more of commodity than me. They had a lot more money invested in her, so maybe I got lost in the shuffle. I don't know if it was a personal thing. I don't know. I just know it was something.

Wade Keller:Since it's WrestleMania season, tell me about the WrestleMania atmosphere compared to other pay-per-views. Is there a real sense of something different and bigger going on that weekend?

Dawn Marie: Yes. There definitely is. I know that when WrestleMania came around, I was never more proud of being a part of the WWE. It was the Super Bowl. It's a great experience to be a part of it, being a little girl growing up and begging my dad every year to get it. I was never a part of one, which was my only real regret. But whatever. At least I was there and did work in the company during those times.

Wade Keller:Wrestlers treated it as the most important night of their career each year?

Dawn Marie: Oh yeah, definitely.

Wade Keller:TNA is now an option for wrestlers and talents who are not a part of WWE. Christian and the Dudleys are former WWE big names who have ended up in TNA. Is that something you're interested in to continue your career and be on national TV and do what you do and what you love? Is that a legitimate option for you in the future?

Dawn Marie: Oh yeah, I would go back tomorrow. I've talked to people there. I've talked to Dixie. I think they're a great company. Dixie is a great woman. We've talked about our children. She's very approachable and personable. I would love to go back to work there. Right now I'm trying to get rid of the baby weight. Had I been still employed, it would be easier for me to come back to TV right away because it's explained in the storyline - the baby weight. I can't go right back to a brand new company with the extra weight on right now. So basically I have to wait until the wait's off. If it's part of a storyline, you understand it: You see her through her pregnancy, now she's getting rid of the weight, and she's heavy because of her baby. But to start in a new company, you can't go in a little thicker (laughs). But I'm very much working hard to get rid of it. I've lost half of it already. Hopefully I can be back very shortly. Unless Dixie came to me and said, "We could explain your weight gain and we'll shoot you from the waist up and maybe be just a commentator. If they're willing to work around it, I'm willing to go back to work tomorrow."

Wade Keller:Does the concept of TNA look like something that can work and should work from what you've seen?

Dawn Marie: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's an alternative. Anything can work if it's done right.

Wade Keller:Do you watch TNA much?

Dawn Marie: Yes, I do. My very good friend is there, Jackie (Gayda). I watch all of her performances. Even if I don't watch the whole show, I tape it and just at least watch her if I don't have time to watch the whole show. I do watch the product because I do want to be a part of it.

Wade Keller:What do you think of what you see so far? Pluses and minuses?

Dawn Marie: I love it. I think they've giving a lot of time to people that are talented who are able to utilize the time. I think it's different, refreshing. There's a lot of athleticism, but yet there's a lot of characterization. You definitely know who each person is. I like it a lot. It's different. People compare it to WWE, or compare it to WCW. Don't compare it. Just enjoy it for what it is. People are so worried about comparing. Oh, it's not this, it's not that. Who cares? It's what it is. One day when another company comes out, they'll be comparing that company to TNA and saying it's not good enough. Stop. Just enjoy what you have in front of you and stop complaining. You know, just like it for what it is. There's going to be things about it you like and things about it you don't.

Wade Keller:Final few questions. Name association. What are your thoughts on your experiences with these people. John Cena?

Dawn Marie: Great guy. Never changed. Always willing to do whatever is asked of him. He and I used to joke all the time. "Oh, what do you have to do this week?" We were the two people who got sent out on everything because we never said no. Great guy.

Wade Keller:Do you think success will ever go to his head?

Dawn Marie: I don't think so. I'd be very disappointed if it did. Very disappointed. That's one person I don't think it'd happen to.

Wade Keller:Big Show?

Dawn Marie: Funny. Very sensitive, sweet guy. He's like a big teddy bear. If you have a problem, you go to him and talk to him. Nice person. Very nice person.

Wade Keller:Rob Van Dam?

Dawn Marie: Quiet. Loyal. That's the one person other than Lance Storm that if I ever heard he cheated on his wife, he would just crumble and I'd think, Oh my god, there's no way. The most loyal man other than Lance I've ever met in the industry.

Wade Keller:How about the Dudleys?

Dawn Marie: Which one?

Wade Keller:We'll start with Bubba.

Dawn Marie: Stern. Hard. But deep down inside, I think he has a heart and he's soft. Half a heart. (laughs) He was always very hard on me and always expected the best out of me and nothing less. And if it was anything less, he let me know about it.

Wade Keller:D-Von.

Dawn Marie: Good friend. Loyal. You could tell him anything about anyone and vent and you don't have to worry about it going two feet away.

Wade Keller:How about Spike?

Dawn Marie: If you don't like Spike, there's something wrong with you. He's one of those people. If you don't like him, you have a character flaw. He keeps his mouth shut. Always happy. Does what he's asked. Never has a problem with anything or anyone. Very smart to the business. A lot more than people give him credit for.

Wade Keller:JBL?

Dawn Marie: He definitely marches to his own beat. He's a locker room leader and he'll let you know about it.

Wade Keller:What does it mean to march to your own beat when it comes to Bradshaw?

Dawn Marie: He does what he wants to do and says what he wants to say. But he's earned the right. He's earned the right. He's been there a very long time. Been through a lot. Done a lot in the company. He likes to do what he wants to do. Practical joker.

Wade Keller:Chris Benoit?

Dawn Marie: An amazing man. Again, loyal. I could never imagine him doing anything wrong to his family. Loves his family. Great confidant. If you have any questions, any problems with anyone, you can go to him. But different from D-Von. He's more on a friendly level. You go to him and he helps you on a professional level deal with your indifferences and problems and frustrations. And it goes no further.

Wade Keller:Kurt Angle?

Dawn Marie: Very nice person. I think his greatest downfall is he wants to make everyone happy. That's his greatest downfall.

Wade Keller:And quite driven to be the best?

Dawn Marie: Yes. His main focus on everything is to be the best. But I really believe that that's not his biggest problem. I think his problem is he tries to make everybody happy. And he winds up not happy.

Wade Keller:Brock Lesnar?

Dawn Marie: Umm. I didn't really know him that well. I don't think he really cared for me very much. (laughs) So he kept his distance.

Wade Keller:Lita?

Dawn Marie: Great girl. She's a loyal friend. I've known her for many years. She was exceeded anything I thought she could ever accomplish from when I first met her and I'm very proud of her.

Wade Keller:How did she exceed your expectations?

Dawn Marie: No, I just met her when she first started. And when you first meet someone and you see them so raw and green and just learning and just starting, I would have never thought she would be the superstar and the person she is today in the business. Not due to anything character-wise that she was lacking. Just I never thought she'd become the star she is. I'm very proud of her. Very proud of her. And she's handled it very well. And she's not a yesser. And I'm proud of her for that, too. She sticks up for herself regardless of the wrath afterwards, whatever is going to come after her afterwards. I respect her for that. She's not a kiss ass. I'm very proud of her.

Wade Keller:Does she love the wrestling business?

Dawn Marie: Loves it. In her heart, in her bones, loves it. Very few women have that quality.

Wade Keller:Torrie Wilson?

Dawn Marie: I think she likes what she does. I think she's trying to better herself. She's was wanting to wrestle more. She loves being a wife. She's very happy being a wife. She's a nice girl.

Wade Keller:Kidman?

Dawn Marie: I didn't really know him that well. You know, I have a rule. I kind of stay away from husbands and boyfriends. I just don't want anyone to say, "Oh, you lingered around this person's husband too long or this person's boyfriend." I just don't want the problem, so I just always was, "Hello. Goodbye. See ya'." Polite and that's it.

Wade Keller:Rena Mero. Sable.

Dawn Marie: Great businesswoman. Amazing businesswoman. Typical rags to riches story. Girl went from having absolutely nothing to a multimillionaire. Very stern and strict. Knows what she wants and goes for it and takes nothing less.

Wade Keller:Tommy Dreamer?

Dawn Marie: I only knew Tommy in ECW days. I don't really know what to say. I never really got to know him very well because of the whole Franny situation.

Wade Keller:How about Kid Kash?

Dawn Marie: Very proud of his own work. Works very hard, has been in the business a very long time. Respects it. I think he excels at what he does.

Wade Keller:Justin Credible, P.J.?

Dawn Marie: Sweet, sweet person. Loves the business. I almost think he doesn't deserve to be in it or shouldn't be in it, should I say. He wears his heart on his sleeve and I think his feelings get hurt too much. Loves him to death. Actually, I'm going to visit him and his wife tonight. Great guy. And I think the business is a little too rough for him. But great at what he does. I think the business eats him up and I hate seeing it. It kills me to see it happen.

Wade Keller:Sandman?

Dawn Marie: Fun-loving. Marches to his own beat, definitely. A few beats, actually. Good at what he does. Great entrance. He's made money both for himself and for the business.

Wade Keller:Do you have a most embarrassing moment in pro wrestling on or off camera, and do you have a favorite memory so far?

Dawn Marie: Most embarrassing moment? Oh God, there are so many. I'm a wrestler. (laughs) Nine times out of ten the stuff that I do is embarrassing. Hmm. Nothing comes to mind that I can remember because pretty much being a heel, you always made a jackass out of yourself. That's what I made a living doing. Most memorable was my first pay-per-view at WWE standing at the top of the ramp looking down, saying, wow, I finally made it. I'll never forget that moment.
This interview originally appeared at http://www.pwtorch.com

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